Ep.145: Radically different approach to infertility - Lindsey & Dan's Story
Caitlin:
Welcome to the Woven Well Podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Estes. I'm a certified fertility care practitioner with a master of divinity degree. Each episode will cover a topic that helps educate and empower you and your fertility while honoring the deep connection your fertility has with your faith. Let's get started.
Caitlin:
Welcome back to the Woven Well podcast. Client stories are so fun. I love my people. I love the opportunity to introduce you to them, and every single client episode is different, but it highlights real people just like you and me, who weren't satisfied with the way things were, and they went out looking for alternatives. Well, thankfully they found them with us at Woven Natural Fertility Care, and now you get to hear about their journey and what it was like for them. Today is especially fun because I'm talking with a client couple, Dan and Lindsey. Dan is an appeals attorney and law professor, and Lindsey has a background in theology from Duke Divinity School focusing on patristics and disability theology. They have two children, but they struggled with infertility for several years before finally being able to conceive. Dan and Lindsey, welcome to the show.
Lindsey:
Great to be here.
Caitlin:
I'm so glad to have y'all on and to share about your experience with Creighton, but I'd like to start off with giving you the space to share a little bit more about yourself and maybe even how you stumbled upon Creighton and what made you want to use it.
Lindsey:
So, as you said, we struggled with infertility for about three years. I did several fertility treatments. We got to a point where I was just done and we decided that we would adopt. The adoption webinar was on a Wednesday, and so we did the adoption webinar. I was feeling sick in the morning, so I went to the doctor the next day. And so the next day right after the adoption webinar, I found out I was pregnant. Through all of those fertility treatments, I found that I was working against my body, and I wanted to find something that would work with my body.
Dan:
Yeah, it was, it was a very difficult process to, to go through and to watch you go through. And it just, it felt really, it felt like being at a used car lot, right, where they're trying to sell us some, and I did not want to have a child that way. Other moral issues aside that just didn't feel like the right way to have a child.
Caitlin:
And I'm glad that in the end you were able to naturally conceive and then discover the Creighton system. And so you began using Creighton and, I always love to hear what was that experience like for you, and especially going from that encounter, like you said, Lindsey, where you were working against your body. What was it like to use the Creighton system?
Lindsey:
I'll be honest, I was very skeptical at first. Dan was actually the one who found it and, you know, was like, Hey, Linds, you know, we need to try this, see if you like it. If we don't like it, we can stop. But I was just so surprised about--one, how little I knew about my own body, how little I knew about my own fertility, how little Dan knew about fertility, and
Dan:
I knew the bits I needed to know.
Lindsey:
Yeah. And so, I was just surprised about that. And I was surprised about just the way that we view fertility right now is really sort of an anomaly, where, you know, it's a thing we can turn on and off with a pill. But learning to work with the natural rhythms of your body really shows you how natural childbirth and how natural cycles actually are.
Dan:
In, one of his homilies on John's gospel, Augustine says, like, we shouldn't be so amazed about the incarnation. We should be amazed at how conception and childbirth happens for all of us. And the only reason why we're not amazed at it is because it happens so often. This is, this is a process that ultimately we don't control that God controls. And I think Creighton is much more aligned with that approach than all of the medical interventions we were trying to do. It. It didn't just feel like trying to force our bodies. It felt like trying to force something from God. And coming to that place of surrender was ultimately when we found Creighton and when we found fertility.
Lindsey:
I think God was trying to tell us, instead of, you know, adoption at that time, he was just telling us to lose our grip on that control, stop trying to force our body to do something. And that's really what I found with Creighton to be the most helpful.
Caitlin:
It is such a challenging balance between knowing that we cannot control this and yet having some sort of a participation in it as well. And I think the story that you're sharing about where you were before and the path that you were on, you didn't feel like either one of those things were being acknowledged. And so you went out in search of something that did, did acknowledge God's role in all of this. And it could still be difficult because we still don't have the ultimate control, but there is that release that really gives us a freedom as well in knowing that God is the creator of all of life. We cannot make this happen and we don't want to make it happen outside of God's will. And I love that you all were being really mindful of that, exploring that, being prayerful about it and looking for ways that you could honor God in the midst of your particular fertility journey. What was it like actually using the Creighton system in the midst of all of that?
Dan:
I think for me, the thing that was the most different was sort of this embodied attention, like paying attention to where our, or really where Lindsey's body was and trying to be just more receptive to that. There was at one point when we were, but at one point when we were trying to get pregnant, we're just like, we're just going to have sex every day this month and we will get pregnant if we have sex every day this month. Turns out that's not as fun as you would think. That's right. It becomes a chore pretty quickly. And like Creighton was almost the opposite of that, where it was listening to your body. And for me as well, there's like a, it's a level of restraint that you have to show around the same time we were getting interested in Creighton, we were getting more interested in like liturgy and cycles of feasting and fasting and you know, those are cycles that are naturally in creation and we want to fight against those. I think our tendency as 21st century Americans is just to constantly feast because we have, we can, and that's not good for you spiritually, and it's not good for you. It turns out it's not good for your body either.
Lindsey:
I completely agree. And something, a surprising thing that we learned is, you know, my, my sex education was, if you have sex, you'll get pregnant and you will die. And after you get married it'll be great and you just don't need to worry about any type of chastity. So, we through Creighton, have actually learned a type of like married chastity where, you know, in Creighton there are fertile days and if you're trying to avoid, which we were at the time trying to avoid becoming pregnant, we, they suggest to not have sex during those times. And so, that's actually really hard. But learning how to have restraint even within marriage is such a virtue formation just for the both of us, I think. But if you're working with a coach, which I highly recommend--can highly recommend Caitlin. You know, every time we met, Caitlin would say, okay, on a scale of 1 to 10, how open would you be to receiving a child in your life right now?
Lindsey:
And sometimes we were like, 1, please God, no, do not give us a child because we are overwhelmed. And then with our second child, Hannah, you know, it was just interesting to see how that desire for a second child has, you know, grown over the, you know, year with just Meredith. And you know, we were telling Caitlin, okay, maybe we're, maybe we're at a seven or maybe maybe we're at a eight, or yeah, we really, really would like another child. A slight piece of advice I will offer for married couples that are considering having a second child or third child. You know, when you're in that discernment process, ask yourself that question at different times of your cycle, because I've found that when I'm ovulating, I'm like, yes, let's have all the babies. But when I am, you know, on my period, I don't want to see a baby like at all, never again. So, to ask yourself sort of those questions at different times of your cycle, actually, you might have a different answer. And if you make the decision, you know, while you're ovulating, then
Dan:
Yeah, I think you know what your answer's probably going to be. Yeah.
Caitlin:
Those are such good words and I appreciate your honesty and willingness to be transparent with listeners because these are the things people want to know. Like how does it actually work out to use this? How does it affect our intimacy as a couple? You know, what's involved, how, how do we make decisions on a monthly basis about whether or not we're going to have more children or try to have more children this particular cycle? And you just addressed all of those. Yes, it is difficult, it does take intentionality, but there is also a moral reasoning to this and a virtue development that results from it. And it sounds like it's been a fruitful process for you all, even though it's been difficult, it's okay for something to be challenging and fruitful at the same time. I think God usually shows up right there in that tension. And so how do you feel like God has shown up for you all in your process of using Creighton and rethinking, re-engaging with all things fertility?
Dan:
I think for me it's helped probably bring some humility to the fore and also realizing the sort of the costs that may not necessarily immediately come to mind. Like when you're, when you're taking the pill, and I guess I'm speaking for you, so let me know if I'm wrong, but I think it's hard to see the costs associated with that because they're kind of hidden costs. But it does stuff to your body, and it changes the way that you relate to your body and the way that you relate to your partner in the way that you relate to God. And we have a mindset that if I take this pill or I do this thing, I can control whatever the thing that I'm trying to control is. And I think that was what we were both feeling was wrong with, like doing fertility treatments and all of that. You know, it's, it's easy to see that with IVF and that was never really on the table for us, but for everything else, it, that's just, that's, that's not a healthy way of relating to yourself and it's not a healthy way of relate. It's, it's a sort of almost technological tower of Babel where you're, you're trying to build your way to the thing that you want and I, we just need a few more bricks and we'll make it there. But it's, that's just, it's bad for you.
Lindsey:
I think what you mean by saying it's bad for you, like it is when we engage with technology, whether it be our cell phone or our TV or you know, the internet, we don't often think about the way that technology is transforming our souls. And the same thing goes for medical technology. We think about the way that it, that it's affecting our bodies, obviously. And I was brought up to say, okay, whatever science has to say about your body, we should just go with it. Because they know what they're talking about. But we haven't stopped to consider, okay, what, what is this medical technology doing to my soul and the way that I'm interacting with this thing doing to my soul? And I think I see Creighton more. I mean, it's, it's spiritual formation that God has invested interest in our bodies. He was in flushed in one. And, for me, Creighton has really shown me how to relate spiritually to the way that God made me.
Dan:
We want to look back at, like, all of those like ancient pagans, and think, you know, how could you do all this crazy stuff for Asherah or whatever, whatever other fertility God you are worshiping, but we're not really, I think, so different from them as we would like to imagine. I mean, sure we're not literally bowing down to an idol, and sacrificing a calf to the idol, but we're trying to get control over something in our lives and we're making sacrifices to something that promises us control that we never really can have.
Lindsey:
I saw a sign in someone's yard the other day and it said, science is the answer. And I've thought about that a lot and I told Dan that I saw the sign and he said, okay, well what's the question? And if science is the answer to fertility, then well what's the question? And I think that Creighton teaches us not necessarily how to do fertility differently, but it teaches us to ask different questions of ourselves and of society and of the way that we do the thing.
Caitlin:
What advice would you have to listeners who are resonating with what you're saying, but feel absolutely overwhelmed or lost about what to do in response to that, or that just feels terrifying to even think of because that's the only hope they feel like they have. That's the only option that they know of.
Dan:
I think that's how I sold you on Creighton is we've tried everything else. Nothing has worked. I mean, it was good lawyer argumentation of what else have you got? Have you got a better idea? And I think that's ultimately coming to that. I mean, we, we'd already started to give up control before we, we started the Creighton process because it's, I'm, I'm trying all of this stuff and it's not working and we, we could have continued fighting and continued pretending that we had control, but we didn't. And all of the evidence was that we didn't, and the people that were supposed to have the answers weren't able to explore. Like, and we literally had surgery. You literally had surgery, not we. And it was like, we don't know why you're not getting pregnant. Don't have an answer to that question. And you'd think with all of our technology and our medicine, we'd be able to do something about it. And the cost just became unbearable,
Lindsey:
Not just financial costs.
Dan:
Yeah
Lindsey:
It was, I mean, financially it was expensive. But it was the emotional cost. I mean I think that I would say to listeners, and I didn't want to hear this at the time, like, I didn't want to hear a story of folks that had two kids already and you know, were on the other side of fertility. It's absolutely okay as a woman to mourn that. We had a pastor that was walking with us through this and he took me by the hands and he said, Lindsey, we believe in a God that opens wombs. And I've never forgotten that. Because we do believe in a God that opens wombs. And I think Creighton is another way. I think Creighton is another option. And even if you don't get pregnant, Creighton doesn't promise that, but you learn more about yourself even if you don't get pregnant with Creighton. You learn about who you are as a woman and who you've been created to be. And I think that's so much more than trying to buy a baby at a used car lot. Right.
Dan:
Yeah, I think it really, it was sanctifying and it would've been sanctifying even if we didn't have children. Like I think even if we were still struggling with fertility, it still would've been worth it.
Caitlin:
Y'all, thanks for sharing all of this. I know that it will be helpful for listeners and you know, I appreciate so much you being on the show and sharing your story.
Lindsey:
Thank you so much. Yeah.
Dan:
Glad to be here.
Caitlin:
Listeners, I'm going to end it right there because everything they had to say was so good and I hope that it was helpful for you, but it may also be stirring a lot of personal questions. A lot of big things got brought up today. And you may be wondering what to do with that. Well, certainly you could choose to attend an introductory session and learn about Creighton, but I also want you to know that I am available to talk with you through these spiritual questions that get stirred up as well. As always, thanks for listening. As we continue to explore together what it means to be woven well.