Ep. 29: Should we think theologically about our fertility? with Dr. Cameron Jorgenson
Caitlin:
Welcome to the woven well podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Estes. I'm a certified fertility care practitioner with a master of divinity degree. Each episode will cover a topic that helps educate and empower you on your fertility while honoring the deep connection your fertility has with your faith. Let's get started.
Caitlin:
As you just heard in the intro, the woven well podcast often talks about the intersection of fertility and faith. There are so many topics to be explored there, but it's helpful to first consider, should we think theologically about our fertility? So we're gonna explore that question today with the help of Dr. Cameron Jorgenson, associate professor of theology and ethics and program director for the master of arts and faith in leadership formation degree at Campbell university divinity school, Creighton supporter for many years, and family. Cameron, thank you so much for being on today. We are excited.
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Oh, thanks so much, Caitlin. It's such a privilege to be part of the conversation.
Caitlin:
Many of our listeners are Christians and some may be familiar with the term theology and others may not be. So let's just start with that term specifically. What is theology?
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Sure. Well at its base, theology is a word about God or the study of God, just like zoology is the study of zoos <laugh> or animals. It is the attempt to wrap our minds around the sacred mystery of who God is. And I think a lot of people, when they hear theology, their first inclination is to say it has something to do with the study of scripture. That's true. Others would say it has to do with the study of what the church has taught over its history. That's true too. Some hear theology and, because of its similarity to something like philosophy, they might say, well, it it's an academic discipline. That's true too. Although, you know, it's more natural home would be the church. The church was doing theology long before the university was created in the middle ages. But it's really this seeking after God and how we might know and understand something more of who God is. But I think there's a more helpful way of understanding theology and why it's important. And it's captured by one of these radicals in the early life of the church who left it all to go into the Egyptian desert and seek after God. And I'm thinking specifically of Evagrius of Pontus and he has this incredible quote that isn't answering exactly what is theology, but rather who is the theologian? And he says, "A theologian is one who prays. And one who prays is a theologian." I just find that really fascinating, because it makes it not so much an academic discipline or an object of study as if, you know, God is a frog in a dissecting pan or something, but instead God is one to be encountered, to be pondered lovingly, as we might ponder the beloved in our life, our spouse or someone that we just deeply desire to know. And that's the heart of what theology really is. It's about knowing; it's about loving. In fact, I would add one more piece to that because Evagrius of Pontus says a theologian is one who prays, but then the question really is what's prayer. And prayer I think is best captured by this idea that the French philosopher, Simone Weil. She was a French Jewish woman who converted to Christianity, discovered the faith. And, she had such amazing things to say, such penetrating insights, and one was on the nature of prayer. And, she says, you know, what is prayer but attention directed toward God. That's the essence of prayer. And I think that's really what Evagrius of Pontus is trying to say. That theology is about turning the attention of our heart with the best that we have with the deepest, most concerted effort, or redirecting our attention toward God and seeking to know God better. That's the heart of theology. Theology is really just this intellectual form of the love of God.
Caitlin:
And if we take that concept of attention to God, and studying God, praying to God, being aware of God in our world, then how do we apply that to the theological study of "________," of any of these different categories? Why do we even think theologically about anything other than God? Or do we?
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Oh yeah, we certainly should. And the reason why is that not only do we need to know God, but we need to know what God has done. And if essentially the world around us is God's creation then knowing the world around us is part of knowing what God has been up to, knowing God's loving intention for the universe. I mean, once we think of the world around us, or even ourselves, through the lens of being God's creation, it opens up everything to theological investigation, because everything has its most basic foundation on its creativeness, ultimately rooted in God's love, the love that called it into being. And so we can think theologically about just about anything,
Caitlin:
Which perfectly brings us to our question that we are trying to ask today: Should we think theologically about our fertility specifically?
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
I think not only can we, but we must, if we're to understand it. Humanity, humankind, is created in the image of God. Genesis 1 26 and 27, just emphatically states God's intention for humanity, "let us create h ankind in our own image, male and female, He created them." In this image and likeness of God. Wow. Of all the things that God describes as having made, or I should say of all the things that God is described as having made in Genesis one. I mean, think about that: God speaks and things are made. God says, let there be light, and there is. God makes the heavens and the earth. And look, with the recent launching of the James web telescope, I don't know if you've seen any of those pictures being beamed back, but it is breathtaking. Yes, the scope, the grandeur of it, all those things, God speaks and they happen. And of all those things that God lovingly creates only humanity is created first with a preamble: "Let's create humankkind in our image, in our likeness." Can we even begin to wrap our minds around that? So for that reason, we had better spend some time thinking about what it means to be human. Because if we don't, we're not really giving God God's due. We're not giving God what God is owed because God went out of God's own way to do something special here. We've gotta pay attention to it.
Caitlin:
Well, you know, we agree at woven well podcast about the importance of how God created the body, male and female, that we are both intentionally designed with beauty and with purpose, and our bodies are a huge part of that!
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's not a strange thing in the history of theology to want to ask the question about the significance of a body. In fact, there's this fascinating work written by one of the greats of the fourth century, Gregory of Nyssa. Fascinating writer, beautiful writer, and a really important leader in the early church. And he has this work, On the making of man, where he's just theologically reflecting on what does it mean to be human? And he asks all kinds of interesting questions about, you know, the nature of the soul. But he actually gets pretty detailed about the nature of our physical bodies. He doesn't get into fertility, but he does ask some fascinating questions that some people wouldn't even think is particularly theological. For instance, chapter seven, explores this burning question: Why man is destitute of natural weapons and covering? I mean, this is hysterical. It's a whole chapter where he explores burning questions like, Hey, many of the animals have things like tusks, or bees have stingers, or a lot of animals have a coat of fur. And here we are supposedly created in the image of God, this pinnacle of creation, the one deputized to be God's designated leader in the creation, and yet we have none of that stuff. We don't have any of the ferocity of some of the wild beast. We don't have any of the quickness of the horse with its hooves and it's natural speed. And so what do we make of all of this? What he's doing is so important. He's asking a really interesting question saying, look at ourselves. What does it mean to be this crowning achievement of creation, but by normal measures of strength, we don't have the same equipment we don't measure up in those ways. And so he wants to ponder that. What does that mean? And so he says things like, God did this with purpose so that we would have a cooperation with the rest of the animals. For instance, we're not the speediest. So we had to tame the horse. We're not the most ferocious, and so we had to work together with the beasts or figure out how to deal with that. I think that's really profound to say that God built us for interdependence, and you can infer that on the basis of our design. He's looking at how we are made and trying to draw some theological inferences from this. And I find that so fascinating. I'll give you one more. He says, why exactly are we on two feet and have hands? And, he takes his time to lay this out, but at the end of the day, we are given hands to free up our mouths so that we don't have to chew like a horse or a cow, you know, chewing the cud. And what's so important about that? Well, we now have hands so that we can write letters. We now have a mouth that can make movements that are required for speech. The gift of hands freed our mouths to sing, to proclaim, to pray. Our hands were given the freedom to write poetry and verse and to write a sermon, to write literature. And, this is a gift of God that achieves this lofty end of the gift of speech to the human race. So my point in saying all that is if we can give sustained attention to the question of why don't we have tusks and fur, maybe we can also pay attention to, oh, what does it mean that our fertility works this way? What does it mean that we cooperate with God to bring new life into the world and God chose to structure it this way and not some other? What are we to infer from that? That's not only permissible, I'd say that's necessary if we're going to use it well.
Caitlin:
Mm. And the beauty that's found in that if we can find the beauty in the examples that you just gave, why we simply have hands, because I think until this moment, I've always taken them for granted. I have hands so I can open bottles, you know? But really there is this beautiful layer to it, this depth that is there. Yeah. If we have the ability to see it, if we open our eyes to see God's presence in it. And I absolutely think that that applies to our fertility as well. And even some of the things that you were saying about the interconnectedness we needed to work together because we didn't have claws and tusks, and here is this other way that we are intentionally bound together, man and woman. There is a beauty there, and there is a richness there that we will miss if our eyes aren't open to it and paying attention.
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Oh, that's so important. Yeah. Yeah. And so if theology, if the essence of theology, is this posture of prayer, which is attempting to attend to who God is, and as an extension who we are and what the world around us is like as a creation made by God, if we are approaching all of life prayerfully, then we can see so much more and discern what God might be up to and how we might participate in that world more responsibly, more faithfully. And I think that's what's at stake. I'm thinking about a situation that just happened recently when a bunch of us went to the beach and the most amazing thing happened. I ran across a burning bush. We were pulling into a parking space and as I pulled into the parking space, I noticed that the front end of my car seemed to be smoking. And I thought, what is happening here? I hop out. And so does my oldest daughter. And she sees it even before I do. She says, "Daddy, the bush is on fire!" Now look, you tell a theologian that you've spotted a burning bush and, you know, I'm looking around for somebody named Moses or I'm about to take off my shoes. "Lord, speak Lord, Your servant's listening!" Turns out that, for some utterly inexplicable reason, the mulch around the bush in front of the car was indeed on fire. Not a raging forest fire, but I did earn my smokey the bear badge by putting it out with a cup of water that was in the car. But the point here is I found myself reflecting and saying, well, how about that? God, I had to go all the way to Beaufort to get an ice cream cone and encounter a burning bush before I asked the question that I probably should have been asking when I got up this morning, "speak Lord, your servant's listening. What do you have to say to me today? What are you, what are you doing?" I'm telling you that that encounter caused me to say, 'oh, what have I missed?' What have I missed by a virtue of my eyes not being open and attentive to what's going on divinely in the things around me. And it reminded me of this poem by Elizabeth Barrett Browning called Aurora Lee. There's this really famous line in it that speaks exactly to this. And she says, "Earth's, crammed with heaven. And every common bush, afire with God. But only he who sees takes off his shoes. The rest sit around it and pluck blackberries and dab their natural faces unaware." And I think how many of us are just plucking blackberries, but missing the fact that the bush is on fire, the bush is burning. God's speaking. I think when it comes to our bodies, when it comes to our fertility, good gracious. Are we just plucking blackberries and missing the holy mystery that's right there in front of us?
Caitlin:
Hmm. So maybe how we begin thinking theologically is by praying.
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Yeah.
Caitlin:
Being open in prayer, even for a topic like our bodies and our fertility.
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Yes.
Caitlin:
Lord, why did you make me as you made me? How are you present in each time of the month in each unique function that my body does? What do you have for me in the fact that my body ovulates an egg each month? How are you pointing me to you in the potential of the miracle of life within my womb? You know, these different things all can point us to God and God also will show us something through it, will teach us something through it.
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Yeah.
Caitlin:
Well, obviously we have only scratched the surface of things to be discussed here. It is a very important topic. And you have mentioned several resources along the way. I tell you wha, listeners, I will put them in the show notes so that you can have them available and you can check those out. But Cameron, if someone wanted to contact you or participate in any educational endeavors that you're a part of, how would you prefer they contact you?
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Oh, sure. Everybody's welcome to email me if you like. My email address is J O R G E N S O N C at campbell.edu. Along those lines too, though, I'd say if anybody is interested in an educational experience that is attempting to help students discern and respond to their calling, wherever it may be, and integrating your professional life and the life of faith, this master of arts and faith and leadership formation degree that I direct at Campbell divinity school is such a helpful way for folks to connect the dots in their lives, between the lives of faith and their professional lives. It's a beautiful experience. You can certainly go to our website, divinity.campbell.edu, and check out the information there.
Caitlin:
Great. Thank you so much for joining us. Because I know you personally, I know that you have a deep respect for women and for fertility and for couples using the Creighton system. So just thank you so much for sharing about theology and how it applies to all of that with us today.
Dr. Cameron Jorgenson:
Oh, my pleasure. It's been so much fun and I have to say, I am a subscriber and a listener to this podcast. I love it. Thanks for letting me be part
Caitlin:
Listeners, this may be the first time you've thought about fertility theologically, or this may be one conversation in a history of many for you, either way. If you'd like to continue thinking theologically about our bodies and fertility, I really encourage you to connect with us and let us know. You can follow us at woven fertility on Instagram, make use of any of our free resources at wovenfertility.com or begin working with us with us through Creighton, by signing up for our next introductory session, also on the website as always, thanks for listening. As we continue to explore together what it means to be woven well.